Four OTs and a Loss and 1 and 3 start in the Pac: A Quick Other Take on Last Night's Game
by rvm on Jan 8, 2012 12:15 PM PST
in Oregon State Men's Basketball
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I was at the game last night and wanted to offer my quick thoughts about the outcome. No [more] pics though, just opinions sorry!
I can understand a good amount of the frustration that I'm reading so far posted here. Granted it was a game that the Beavs had their chances to win, but as disappointed as I was with it all I also think jumping ONLY on the negative criticism wagon for this game does do the team a little disfavor with how much they put it on the line.
This is what over 3 hours of basketball came down to. (Photo by Andy Wooldridge)
Now on the critical side of things I think the State of WA trip was problematic in putting the Beavs in a hole and I do NOT like that now they are 1 and 3 in the Pac when they could (should?) be 3 and 1 if not 4 and 0 (but could've, should've) , but really for what it was that was a game last night with two fairly equally matched teams having moments both good and bad and basically going for blow for blow with each other for an hour of play time and over how many total hours I cannot even remember thinking back to the haze of sitting in the hot stands watching that marathon.
I won't sugarcoat it all for I think it was sloppy and yes they should have put away the Cardinal there a couple of times in regulation, but at the same time the Cardinal had their chances too and they aren't a horrible team. It was a game that this team wouldn't have held a candle in last season for sure. I know my expectations were jacked up a bit with the non-conference play but really did we not expect some games to get away from this team this year? And why not make it get away in an epic battle down to the wire? Better this than a 35 blow out like we would have got last year. I'm not going to go into the details about the team stats and individual player play for I think that Andy did a wonderful job in his write up below, but will say I disagree a bit with some of the conclusions about the play.
Such as I disagree with this:
With 3 Stanford starters already disqualified, and Powell with 4 fouls, the longer the game went on in front of crowd of 7,239, over 7,200 of which were Beaver fans, the more the situation favored Oregon St. in the war of attrition
Favored? The Beavs were exhausted at the end and Stanford funny enough was forced into fresher players and this led to the Beavs just not having that extra step as the OTs progressed. And if you all think this unacceptable you try going out and playing in a four OT game. I haven't even played in a double OT, but I will say I unequivocally believe it isn't easy. I mean this was one of those weird games where a team having their main players foul out might have gave them the advantage in the end to pull it out. I don't want to be one of those but I'm going to anyway (maybe the lingering haze effects of the game have my judgement all askew, I'll let others judge me on that though) and say have you all played basketball? Playing for 30 to 35 minutes is hard enough let alone going 40+! I know I was exhausted during and after the game from just watching and cheering, I can't imagine what it was like for the players and coaches.
I actually have no issue taking it to the team a bit for the OVERALL conference start this season for I think they are better than their record states right now and they have the expectations in place themselves, BUT I think it is a bit much to question how the game went especially once it went into OT. Regulation maybe for I think there were some moments that very much got away from the team but in that crazy OT really for us in the stands or watching on TV can't say this or that for all bets were off IMHO and it was just going to be what it was going to be. I mean Stanford totally should have put the dagger in the Beavs in that last one and they couldn't . Let's not get all on the Beavs for playing under themselves for they came back multiple times to even have that shot at winning it in the end.
I mean heck as much as it pisses me off to do so I have to give some big time props to the Cardinal too. That was not an easy game.
And even though we lost the game I am actually glad I saw it. For as a basketball game it was pretty darn exciting and can't say I've ever remember seeing a basketball game quite like that one or doubt I will anytime soon.
I know again it may seem like I'm just in my rvm making excuses mode (keep rolling your eyes at me, nod your head in agreement with my self assessment, and so on here), but really the team needs a little props for playing a game like this all the way through. I KNOW it was a hard one on them physically and I'm pretty sure it is a really hard one on them mentally. In my very personal opinion I just think we need to be focused in our critical fan mode with the conference start, but let's also give our team a bit more props for laying on the line for us in this game. But as always take this all how you want for it is just my opinion.
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Tremendous effort by the team, no doubt.
The challenge here is to recognize and build on the many positives, but not ignore all the things that could and should have been done better. If they can learn from this, and last week, without letting it get them down, then they will have taken the next step.
Andy Wooldridge, andy_wooldridge@yahoo.com
BuildingTheDam.Com
Go Beavs!
Re: Exhausted players
That’s what subs are for.
I miss baseball.
by Figgi4life on Jan 8, 2012 2:50 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Robinson actually did seem to sub quite a bit and that didn’t match up with what people wanted and not sure I have strong opinions about that all for he and staff knew what the situation was for his players, but still come on 4 OTs you are going to be pretty tired “that’s what subs are for” to me is a good argument with a regular game going maybe one or two deep in OT but in this case I’m saying they dug deep but in many ways the strange situation with the Cardinals fouling out their starters gave them a seemingly slight step freshness the Beavs did not have. Stanford was tired too and one reason I think some of their starters fouled out in that they were making some mental mistakes.
So are you saying in this way out of the norm situation that should be blamed for being exhausted or that the coaching staff should be blamed for having exhausted players? Personally in this game I can’t go there.
-RVM
by rvm on Jan 8, 2012 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
“seemingly slight step freshness” = And in a game like this I feel like even a slight advantage is going will turn into a big one.
-RVM
by rvm on Jan 8, 2012 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
This was uncharted waters
Few games ever go that far, and never had either of these programs in their entire history.
Coach Robinson said he had never been involved with a 4 overtime game as a coach or a player at any level.
He was situation substituting in the late going, and admitted he possibly should have subbed more during regulation. But that happened with no inkling that an extra half was going to be played. Once in OT, every possession’s importance was magnified, and it becomes increasingly tricky; you don’t want to loose with less than your best out there if you can help it.
Oregon St.’s superior team speed had gotten Stanford into foul trouble, and though the Beavers seemed gassed compared to the Cardinal, who seemed to have gotten a second wind, I think that was more emotion (a really strange concept with ’Furd) than anything, and Stanford probably would have come back to earth pretty quickly in a 5th. ot without a point guard.
Andy Wooldridge, andy_wooldridge@yahoo.com
BuildingTheDam.Com
Go Beavs!
Effort outstanding, some strategy questionable
Hey, RVM how are you doing? Of course, you can’t question the effort, but I can question CR’s strategy of over utilizing the two man game throughout OT. When you go almost 10 minutes without scoring a basket, it ain’t working.
Starks got a couple of buckets with his speed, but committed just as many turnovers and took wild shots. After Angus sets his pick at the top of the key and either pops or rolls, he has to be ready and confident in his shot and the ballhandler (Starks, Cunningham) can’t just dribble head down to the basket or it becomes predictable. Also, the three other guys just end up standing around watching most of the time.
I didn’t understand that strategy, it’s not how the Beavers have played on offense all year. They didn’t change anything in OT against Texas, so why against Stanford?
If they don’t believe they are a 1-3 team like Roberto says. Then they will have ample opportunity to prove otherwise with 5 of the next 7 games on the road. It’s time to get going. This is not youth soccer, efforts ok, but wins are what count.
5 of the next 7 games on the road,
and the road is proving once again to be tough to get wins on in this conference.
With 3 losses that were all lost opportunities already, its going to take some tough work to make sure the season doesn’t get away before they ever get to what could be a favorable finish to the schedule.
Andy Wooldridge, andy_wooldridge@yahoo.com
BuildingTheDam.Com
Go Beavs!
Hey there mckalk!
I’m don’t know if I’m really saying we shouldn’t question the “effort” and I avoided on purpose to avoid using that abstract concept! One of my points is more about the overall decisions and also execution, and I’m especially focused on OT much along the lines of what Andy is saying above and it became such uncharted territory that I just don’t know how we can really get that hypercritical about the decisions and execution that deep into a game. Going with the two-man game seemed strange but was that totally on the coaches? What about the other players not moving around as much as they did earlier in the game (which was the case at times)? Cunningham is the leader so how much of that is on him to come through and to also make the right decision to change it up? Again I’m sure I’m critical of some of the stuff that happened in regulation and first couple of OTs too, but not sure really that was about the coaching decisions or execution, and not sure it was anything beyond the norm for a basketball game, though I really thought Stanford had the W in regulation with that terrible TO at the end there.
I do say though that being a bit too critical of decisions for I really don’t know if we can truly second guess in those OTs (maybe I can go there with you on the first one) does take away from a pretty impressive overall basketball game where two teams made mistakes and played badly and both teams at times overcame those mistakes to make it a very exciting game. At least I thought it was exciting even with my disappointment! And the losses to UW, WSU and Idaho were NOT exciting!
And I am totally with Andy about my concern about this overall conference record hole with some tough possible games coming up.
I also agree with Nelson and they better well prove Robert and myself correct!
-RVM
by rvm on Jan 8, 2012 4:25 PM PST up reply actions
It goes a little bit into the second half and not just OT. They had an outstanding assist total in the first half and went away from a team concept for some reason. I think that is on the coaches to utilize timeouts and correct. The two man game was either dictated by CR or Starks and Cunningham were ignoring him.
I know the game was unique, but we can’t lose sight that this team blew a 12 point second half lead and OT shouldn’t have even happened. Sorry, I’m a little ticked off because the talent level is at or about the competion every night now and because the team didn’t come to play in the first half against Wazzu and lost focus in the second half against Stanford, they now have a 1-3 hole to dig out of.
My issue with the game
is that OSU looked like the better team, but failed to execute down the stretch. There were 3 or 4 opportunities to finish the game off in regulation and several players failed to do it.
by BeaverBeliever12 on Jan 8, 2012 4:55 PM PST reply actions
After watching the highlights
Holy crap Roberto’s shot was close. And to me one of the biggest mistakes was that possession with 20 seconds left after Cunningham’s steal. I mean really, some type of weird hook shot over like 5 people?
I miss baseball.
by Figgi4life on Jan 8, 2012 7:09 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Yeah totally close. I know it was not a high % shot but really to me it seemed as good as anything going on in that last OT (like you mentioned with that one possession the mental decisions were not fully clicking at times, again my argument about fatigue) for it really to me was all bets were off and Roberto has the range to hit those. Plus I don’t know if either team or the fans could have survived yet another OT!
It had its moments of WTF but really it was a good basketball game. Again for me the issue becomes it is another loss and puts them in a conference hole way too early. As a total thought experiment I wonder what we all would think about this game if say they had beat UW or WSU at it put them at 2 and 2 instead of 1 and 3?
-RVM
by rvm on Jan 9, 2012 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
I think such thought experiments are gateways to insanity
Which I’m really trying to avoid after the mind-numbing amount of chances the Beavers blew put me on the cusp.
In an effort to stay sane and on topic with your comment, here’s some stuff:
1. I’m not sure how a 5th overtime would have gone either. The whole stadium seemed to lose energy after the game went into the 4th.
2. If they are going to climb out of this hole, they need to play some defense. Despite the loss, the man-to-man defense looked pretty good until they got tired. The help defense looked much quicker and the rotations looked much sharper. Stanford got some easy shots because they were taller, but I don’t remember our guys necessarily getting beat. Maybe I’m just remembering what I what to remember, but it sounds rational and it gives me hope.
At least, I think it does. My mind is still fumbling through the hedge maze of lost opportunities so rational thought is not really one of its priorities at the moment.
This all seems logical to me but remember I’m probably still recovering from that game myself!
As for the thought experiment that really was more about it isn’t really this one game for me that seems the need to get all concerned, but the record they have now. Hmm, but yes I’ve said this already and I guess losing and record all go together so I guess my added bit to clarify for my personal thoughts is that for me I am more disturbed about the loss to WSU than this Stanford game. And if the team could have won that WSU game like I figured they should have they are sitting at 2 and 2 so I feel to date that WSU loss is the most important/concerning one so far.
Since I lost track of what happened in each of those OTs was the one going into the fourth the one where the Cardinal hit that three to tie it up? That one shot seemed to be a emotional drainer plus when the Cardinal got ahead by five in the fourth OT. But this is why I was still impressed that the Beavs came back even to have that last attempt to tie or win the game in the fourth OT.
-RVM
by rvm on Jan 9, 2012 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
3rd ot had 3 points apiece
“…an undefended 3 pointer by Anthony Brown tied the game for the 14th. and last time, at 95-95.”
That was one of several uncontested 3s Oregon St. allowed.
Andy Wooldridge, andy_wooldridge@yahoo.com
BuildingTheDam.Com
Go Beavs!
That’s what I thought with that and the five point run they went on in the fourth were deflating for sure, but again the team still bounced back to give themselves a shot at it and I was very impressed by that.
You quoting yourself there? Hopefully not me somewhere else!
-RVM
by rvm on Jan 9, 2012 2:15 PM PST up reply actions
Quoting from the game story.
Andy Wooldridge, andy_wooldridge@yahoo.com
BuildingTheDam.Com
Go Beavs!
Phew! Thought so (and yes I should’ve known) but wanted to be sure I wasn’t losing total sanity along with kriskrosed! :-)
-RVM
by rvm on Jan 9, 2012 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
I didn’t want to seem to be nitpicking, I thought the same thing on Cunningham’s shot. He seems to do that a lot where just something easy and basic would do the trick. Sometimes too much speed and athleticism is not necessarily advantageous! I watched Collier’s shot again on that same sequence, that was the tough one. Point blank, couldn’t ask for a better put back chance. Oh well, time to move on.
About the upcoming games
As mentioned above the Beavs are going into a tough stretch of games with 5 out of the 7 on the road. If they are going to turn it around this is a great opportunity.
Here’s a look at the games:
Thu, Jan 12 @ Arizona
Sat, Jan 14 @ Arizona State
Thu, Jan 19 vs UCLA
Sat, Jan 21 vs USC
Sun, Jan 29 @ Oregon
Thu, Feb 2 @ Colorado
Sat, Feb 4 @ Utah
Now personally I think these are all winnable games, even the at Colorado one, but also could be losses too. The team did not play well against the WA schools on the road so I also personally think this is a good test for the team beyond the W/L outcomes and a great growing experience if they can continue on into any type of postseason.
IF the Beavs can come out of this stretch with no more than two losses (and hopefully better) they will be 6 and 5, which is not great but also isn’t bad for then they will be going into two series against teams that look to be the ones in the top tier of the Pac this year (Cal, Stan, and UW) and then close the season with Colorado at Gill, and with also getting UW and WSU at home it possibly can line up nicely with making a move.
Just some more thoughts I had about it all.
Other thoughts?
-RVM
This Thursday at Arizona concerns me,
probably almost as much as it concerns the ’Cats, given their inconsistent play this year.
We have the height and reach in the front-court that should be an advantage, but beating Arizona down there is never easy.
Controlling Kyle Fogg, who has good games and ones not so much, is going to be very important.
If the Beavers can beat the ’Cats, then shooting for 5-2 seems doable. Lose Thursday and I think 4-3 over the 7 will be a good outcome.
Andy Wooldridge, andy_wooldridge@yahoo.com
BuildingTheDam.Com
Go Beavs!
Interesting
This seems like it could be one with a mix bag for the time it falls. For maybe it is a good bit of timing coming off the heartbreaking loss this Saturday and the Beavs could be fired up. Or maybe too early where it would have been better to get at the ’Cats later after some better match ups.
Thinking and writing a bit aloud I guess but yes I agree with the UA game being a harbinger.
-RVM
by rvm on Jan 9, 2012 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
I'm conflicted about Arizona
At a macro level, and where I was a month ago, losing to Arizona on the road doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. If you’re going to lose in the Pac-12, on the road to Arizona is perhaps the most understandable.
At a micro level though, Oregon State could use a win. Lose and I get the feeling it would cause panic disproportionate to the amount a road loss to Arizona should cause simply because the Beavers would then be 1-4.
I guess it’s like your thought experiment above. Does this game carry more weight because of how the Beavers have started conference play? Should it? I don’t know.
Any time you have games get away,
subsequent games become even more important, because you have lost some of your margin for error.
(Kind of like possessions that come up empty as games go on.)
Andy Wooldridge, andy_wooldridge@yahoo.com
BuildingTheDam.Com
Go Beavs!
Right, I just don't know if it's worth it at Arizona
Let’s see if I can get this right…
If the NCAA tournament was a goal, then getting an at-large bid is looking tougher and tougher. At this point, they’d probably have to finish on a run of at least 12-2. Doable but pretty dang tough and not very likely. Lose to Arizona and it’s darn near impossible.
What they need to avoid at all costs is a lost season. At the least, for team and fan confidence, I’m thinking they need to get 20 or so wins, finish in the top half of the conference, and get a bid to the NIT. Even with a loss to Arizona, that’s still a very real possibility.
If you still expect an at-large bid, put too much pressure on the Arizona game, lose, and then lose your head, the season could get worse than it should. It might be better to keep the game in perspective and keep fighting through what could still be a very good season no matter the outcome.
To summarize, I would love to see an NCAA bid. Even more strongly, I would love for them to avoid a poor season. I therefore think it’s not worth putting too much importance on the Arizona game.
Know you are responding to Andy here, but I think you make some excellent points here:
If you still expect an at-large bid, put too much pressure on the Arizona game, lose, and then lose your head, the season could get worse than it should. It might be better to keep the game in perspective and keep fighting through what could still be a very good season no matter the outcome.
To summarize, I would love to see an NCAA bid. Even more strongly, I would love for them to avoid a poor season. I therefore think it’s not worth putting too much importance on the Arizona game.
Goes against what I said below but I can go here and thinking about it this way do agree.
-RVM
by rvm on Jan 9, 2012 3:23 PM PST up reply actions
but will add that a win against UA would be a nice bounce back for sure
-RVM
by rvm on Jan 9, 2012 3:24 PM PST up reply actions
One challenge is the unknown of how many losses become too many losses mentally.
At some point, even if the NCAA isn’t the goal, too many losses turns into playing out the string. I agree about this season needing to not turn into a lost season, and that would be the definition of one.
Pretty soon an at-large NCAA bid gets away, and it doesn’t matter if they finish 1-17 if they win the Pac-12 tournament. Realistically, a major collapse isn’t something that can be recovered from just in time for the conference tournament.
The mental impact of too many losses without enough good wins, or being in too deep a hole, could begin to wear on the team, and that could “throw away” the end of the season, never mind an NIT (or even CBI) bid.
A win over Arizona would be good for mental health as much or more than for the overall w-l record.
Andy Wooldridge, andy_wooldridge@yahoo.com
BuildingTheDam.Com
Go Beavs!
Good point. I think I finally understand what I was trying to get at.
It feels like OSU is in a huge hole. However, there was talk a few weeks ago that these first 5 games are the toughest part of the schedule. Arizona is the last game of the stretch. If it really is the toughest stretch, then a poor record is disappointing but explainable.
Hopefully they win and start 2-3. Just a few weeks ago, some folks were saying they could live with a 2-3 start (sorry, I can’t remember whom, but I agreed with them). Even if they lose, a 1-4 start would be disappointing, but somewhat understandable. It’s just been tough because of the nature of the losses.
After ‘Zona, it gets easier. You’re right; start with too many losses and you lose a season no matter who you lost to. I would say that limit is Arizona. Starting with Arizona State, they’ll need a good stretch of basketball.
I guess it’s like your thought experiment above. Does this game carry more weight because of how the Beavers have started conference play? Should it? I don’t know.
I would actually say in a way it would start to carry more weight for it very much now seems to me to fall into that in many ways it is more about the record than the actual possible single game performance. It is a very tricky deal I know for it all connects, but yes I totally agree if the Beavs play them tough but still lose that at a single game performance level it isn’t all that bad (unless both teams shoot like 22% and it is a 32 to 28 final score totally ugly type of game!) but 1 and 4 in the Pac would be a troubling start for this team in my opinion.
You might also start to wonder with the team being young and the first time this group has really played together as a Robinson team if the mental deal would start to be problematic if they keep losing close games. Right now I’m not really worried about it but if it continues to happen where they come up short in games they should win it could start to snowball. I think the performance against Cal though, and the fact that they have been pretty much in all their games even when they have played pretty badly, bodes well for this not happening.
-RVM
by rvm on Jan 9, 2012 3:13 PM PST up reply actions
Honestly, every game is a winnable game for them this year
That’s what makes this year both so exciting and so frustrating. I’m starting to feel about them the same way I feel about Washington. Enough talent to win anywhere, but who knows what’s going to happen once the ball goes up.
I’m just thankful that no matter the outcome at Arizona, Arizona State comes next. ASU is very beatable this year. Not a sure thing though! I don’t want to jinx them again.
A game of inches...
If that last shot, which was on-line, had been even 1/3 of a ball shorter, imagine how different the post game conversation would have been.
Andy Wooldridge, andy_wooldridge@yahoo.com
BuildingTheDam.Com
Go Beavs!
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