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The Glaring Mismatch

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. This is likely the last you'll see of me until tomorrow. Enjoy the holiday, and Go Beavers!

"I have never, ever thought time of possession was a valuable stat," said Bellotti. "I've said, the only thing that matters is points, and the more points the better."

Looks like it's hurting you, bro. But back to that in a second.

Back in August, UO athletic department blogger Andy McNamara wrote this on his blog:

As if they aren't a motivated group enough already, Oregon's veteran secondary is in search of a nickname or handle to give them an added spark this season. A while back I solicited suggestions, which I presented to Patrick Chung after yesterday's lone practice. After consulting with Jairus Byrd and Walter Thurmond III, the leader of the triumvirate narrowed the list down to the following choices:

  • D-Boyz
  • The Flock
  • Autzen Air Control
  • The Fog
I'll put a poll up shortly on the front page of GoDucks.com, but in the meantime feel free to comment on the choices.

 

The poll went up. Fans voted. The D-Boyz were born. Songs were written. (To hear the song, jump after the break below.)

And then the games started.

Oregon's defensive backfield may be sexy, but their numbers aren't. The Ducks have the worst passing defense in the Pac-10. That's right-- worse than 0-11 Washington, and every other team in the conference. Even measly Washington State gives up 70 less passing yards per game. However, they may only have themselves to blame.

The Ducks want you to think that they aren't as bad as their numbers suggest-- they blame their quick strike offense for their defensive woes. Yet they haven't done anything to fix it. Seems like some communication between the offensive and defensive coaching staffs could fix the problem, but that's just us. Oregonian beat writer John Hunt wrote the following in the newspaper:

The Oregon defense can be excused for being tired -- and for being tired of answering for numbers that don't tell the whole story. If everybody looked at yards per play instead of yards per game, the Ducks would look very strong.


If Saturday's Civil War comes down to the wire, Oregon's defense may be a bit tired.
- - -

Good point, John. The Oregon offense, which scores more points than anyone else in the conference, only spends 25 minutes per game on the field-- three minutes less than any other team in the conference, and seven minutes less than Oregon State, who spends 32 minutes and 21 seconds on the field per game. The Beavers lead the conference in time of possession, and they have the second best defense in the Pac-10. If Oregon's offense is on the field for three minutes less than any other team in the conference, that means their defense spends three more minutes than any other Pac-10 team on the field per game. Funny how that works.

If that means anything, it's that the Beavers should have an even bigger advantage in Saturday's Civil War when they have the ball. The Oregon State offense is used to wearing down opponent defenses, and Oregon's hurry-up offense should only hurt the Duck defense more.

Hunt adds:

No defensive unit in the nation has played more snaps than Oregon's.

Take Georgia. The Bulldogs have played 12 games -- one more than the Ducks. Their defense has played 182 fewer snaps than Oregon's.

Take Oregon State, the Ducks next opponent in the Nov. 29 Civil War in Corvallis. The Beavers have played 10 games but their defense has been on the field for 253 fewer snaps (864 to 611) than Oregon's.

Oregon State's passing offense, led by Lyle Moevao and Sean Canfield, ranks first in the conference. The Beavers possess a trio of wide receivers unlike anything the Ducks have seen before. In other words, the best is yet to come, D-Boyz.

The Oregon secondary has been getting worn down as games go on. Even though the Ducks have the worst overall pass defense in the Pac-10, they're the sixth best secondary in the first quarter. By the second quarter, they're ranked ninth. And in the second half, they're dead last.

Oregon State should be able to take advantage of this obvious flaw. And if the game is close down the stretch, it will be interesting to see who has still has the best legs when the game is decided in the fourth quarter.

Accept the blame, Ducks. It's your own fault. It's not good to inflict pain on yourself.

Star-divide

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1985 called...

…it wants its synthesizer back

by xnickmx on Nov 27, 2008 7:53 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That song is a classic!

It reminds me of a story.

Back in 2003, after the Huskies just destroyed the then ranked OSU team in Corvallis, my brother and I were walking downtown to nurse the ass whooping we just received from the dawgs. Traffic was its typical horrible self but some middle aged Huskies thought it would be cool if they blasted “Who Let the Dogs Out” with all four windows down while bobbing their heads to the beat. Since this happened right in front of us, we just fell to the ground laughing. We were seriously in hysterics. Then the two dawgs turned down the radio and rolled up their windows. They were embarrassed.

And that’s how I would feel if I were a duck and I heard this song. How do I know this? Because I was on the floor laughing.

GO BEAVS!!!

FTd’s!!!

by beavers415 on Nov 27, 2008 9:54 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In all fairness

It’s kinda how I feel when I hear O-State Ballaz….

Oregon State: where play action defense and healthy QBs thrive

by The VD Special on Nov 27, 2008 10:37 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The thing that's also funny ...

Some of their defensive players have decent individual stats, but in reality they’re given twice as many chances to make sacks, break up passes, etc.

That is the simplest quantification of why they’re not any good.

Roses are Orange.

by CV3000 on Nov 27, 2008 12:05 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Perspective - Ducks secondary are class acts

Just to add a little perspective to this article – there are a more important things than nicknames and even football games. My 17 yr old brother is losing his battle with an aggressive type of brain cancer. His favorite player is Walter Thuman and last Friday both Walter Thurman and Patrick Chung were at our house to give him some moral support. They didn’t have to do this but drove up from Eugene to Newberg together to visit Drew as they had the day off from practice. Everyone at the house was really impressed with the class these two young men had. They were so nice and gave my whole family hugs and said they had never done this before but it was as special to them as it was to my family and Drew. Lets hope for a good Civil War. Chung and Thurman promised they would do their best to get a win against the Dark side;) Happy Thanksgiving Go Ducks

by goosegra on Nov 27, 2008 12:10 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's pretty awesome.

And we appreciate knowing that they will do their best for the Beavers to win. :-)

Roses are Orange.

by CV3000 on Nov 27, 2008 12:19 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Win?

CV,
Hairplugs? Really. Call your mommy

by gman1 on Nov 30, 2008 11:30 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is cool

I’ll lay off Chung and Thurmond this Saturday

But Johnson and Blount and Masoli are gonna get it. Should never open your mouths like that, kids

Oregon State: where play action defense and healthy QBs thrive

by The VD Special on Nov 27, 2008 12:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

little worried about Masoli

The erratic play of Masoli concerns me but Blount is a man. Masoli needs to get the ball down field like the did against UA. If not it will be trouble. With Oregon having two weeks to gameplan for them I think that will be a factor plus the overall health of the Oregon players. If the last two Civil Wars are any indication I think this will be a great game – albeit the Beavs won the last two :( Ducks are due…

by goosegra on Nov 27, 2008 12:45 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah every Duck fan is really excited about how he played against UA

But all I saw was one good half. One half of one game plus one drive in another (Stanford) isn’t really an indicator of success. Potential, maybe. Plus, he played both those games in the friendly confines of Autzen. It’ll be interesting to see how he does in a hostile environment.

Oregon State: where play action defense and healthy QBs thrive

by The VD Special on Nov 27, 2008 12:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

its a big question mark

by goosegra on Nov 27, 2008 1:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think this game is ultimately going to come down to the play of Masoli

We know what the Beavers are going to bring at home
We know what the Oregon rushing game can do
We don’t know what Masoli is going to do

And one good half from him isn’t going to be enough to beat us at Reser

Oregon State: where play action defense and healthy QBs thrive

by The VD Special on Nov 27, 2008 1:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well...

If he puts up 45 on you in the first half, I think you and the rest of us will be awfully impressed.

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 27, 2008 1:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If he puts up 45 the entire game I'll be impressed

If he puts up more than 30 I’ll be impressed

Oregon State: where play action defense and healthy QBs thrive

by The VD Special on Nov 27, 2008 3:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly.

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 27, 2008 3:41 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Masoli puts up 30 in the game it will be impressive considering his overall skill

Masoli is a less athletic Isaiah Stanback or Jake Locker, but on a better team. His offense is just as one-dimensional though.

You know, it’s been a very healthy period of time for the oregon quarterback position and it’s also been a while since OSU put a running quarterback on the shelf.

2006-Isaiah Stanback; broken leg
2007-Brian Johnson; broken leg
2007-Jake Locker; neck boo boo
2007-Whoever started the game for oregon; lack of athletic ability resulted in concussion
2008-TBD

Roses are Orange.

by CV3000 on Nov 27, 2008 3:44 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

HUH? There you go, drawing your own pitiful conclusions.

Yes. Absolutely. Our top defensive priority is to flush unskilled quarterbacks out of the pocket so that they can put themselves in grave physical danger.

We made sure of that when we put UW in 4th and 26 deep in their own territory and Stanback tried to convert it with his feet, but got crumpled on a routine tackle and ended his season instead.

Same thing when Jake Locker decided that he’d be better off not confronting Al Afalava straight on. It was our strategy that made him chicken out and turn towards the sideline right before he got hit.

We have very dangerous defensive strategies. Yep.

No. That’s just what happens when your OC is stupid enough to run an offense that requires a running quarterback.

Roses are Orange.

by CV3000 on Nov 27, 2008 4:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Calm down dude.

And could you please stop the hardcore hating on Chip Kelly? Like, no joke. Chip Kelly is arguably the smartest and most inventive minds in college football today.

And I guess I misunderstood what you were saying, sometimes senseless drivel confuses people.

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 27, 2008 4:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He moves the ball doesn't he?

He, two years in a row, has had to throw at least his 4th string quarterback in on short notice. He takes little and does a lot. You should be all too familiar with this coaching attribute, shouldn’t you?

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 27, 2008 5:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not sure what you're talking about

I know what you’re trying to say, but do you honestly believe that?

You can answer for either coaching staff that you’re trying to throw that blanket over.

Roses are Orange.

by CV3000 on Nov 27, 2008 5:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A reply-to for our previous conversation which got deleted.

You expected the second coming of Dennis Dixon in his 2nd year here, with absolutely no one with as much talent, experience, or athleticism? I mean, Nate Costa could’ve been damn Tebow-like, but you can’t say that he’s a failure as a coach because he didn’t make Jeremiah Masoli, a JUCO sophomore with 2 months at Oregon, into a Heisman candidate. He’s done the most he can with him, see Stanford and Arizona games. You may be under the impression those were just flashes, but it sure as hell impressed me.

You seem to have awfully high expectations from Chip Kelly, but maybe that’s just me.

Height has a lot to do with durability, it sounds rude, but it’s life. Quizz is as tough as 5’7" kids come, but it’s gotta happen at some point. So many gives to a player puts wear on them, especially when they’re somewhat smaller.

This is nothing against Quizz. Who doesn’t love Quizz. But your argument that it’s stupid to have one player in our system (the QB) touch the ball so much goes both ways.

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 27, 2008 5:39 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry about Costa.

I guess I should have realized that he would have come out of nowhere and played like Tim Tebow. That doesn’t even make sense.

Maybe Kelly has done a good job of limiting his offense to match the skillset of his quarterback. Maybe he’s done the most with what he has to work with—and just needs talented players. I don’t really know or care, but one year doesn’t make him a “genius.”

They don’t have height classes in boxing. Muscularity has to do with durability; he’s ripped—it was just a fluke hit. Height is a complete non factor, except maybe he would have gotten hit in the arm on that play -instead of the shoulder- if he was taller.

The argument about not wanting to have quarterbacks running the ball too much in a balanced offense is still valid. We’re not talking about a running back who can come out for a series if he gets his bell rung or is out of breath. If you have an offense with any kind of diversity or sophistication in the passing game, and you’re putting your quarterback out in the land of strong safeties and linebackers—you’re putting all of your offensive capability, experience and accumulated knowledge at risk.

When Quizz went out last week at Arizona, we still got 145 yards from scrimmage out of the running back position. That’s almost exactly Quizz’s average production per game. Even without the best player in the Pac-10 on the field, there wasn’t a dropoff in overall production from Oregon State’s offense—with no time to prepare for his absence.

Was there a dropoff in production when Dixon went out at Arizona in 2007? What about the week after -which was actually a month after the injury- at UCLA, when they were shutout? Dropoff? Even with a month to prepare?

What about Washington in 2006—after Stanback broke his leg while scrambling? They should have gone to a bowl that year, but lost all the rest of their games instead. What about the Huskies this year? I guarantee they would have at least won 1 game with Locker.

Pocket passers are at risk, too. But even Rudy Carpenter getting sacked 55 times last year is nothing compared to the number of tackles that a wishbone quarterback such as oregon’s goes through in 2 games.

Roses are Orange.

by CV3000 on Nov 27, 2008 9:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m a bit tired of this argument. I’d like someone to show me some stats of how many times a QB gets hit in an offense like Oregon’s and an offense like Oregon State’s. If you make a claim, it’s your responsibility to back it up with facts. (And word of mouth doesn’t do.)

It's spelled "S-h-u-h-u-s-k-y-h-a-t-e-r"

by JShufelt on Nov 27, 2008 10:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look, 2 or 3 injuries is a fluke

But Oregon has had how many serious injuries to their QBs since Kelly has taken over? If that isn’t stat enough, then I don’t know what is.

Oregon State: where play action defense and healthy QBs thrive

by The VD Special on Nov 27, 2008 10:45 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Logic 101: Correlation does not imply causation.

It's spelled "S-h-u-h-u-s-k-y-h-a-t-e-r"

by JShufelt on Nov 28, 2008 9:58 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's 180 to 25.

OSU quarterbacks have been sacked 10 times this year. They have probably carried the ball another 5-10 times on sneaks. They’ve probably been hit another 10 times when they weren’t sacked (we’ll just assume 1 extra hit per sack on average).

So that’s 25-30 total hits they’ve taken.

Oregon QB’s have been sacked 15 times on much fewer passing attempts, and had exactly 150 rushing carries on the season. Add another 15 hits to the quarterback on non-sacks.

That’s 150 + 15 + 15= 180

So they get hit 6 times more often.

Roses are Orange.

by CV3000 on Nov 28, 2008 12:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thanks CV

It's spelled "M-A-R-C-H-I-N-G-B-A-N-D."

I support Roger Kieschnick in his quest to becoming the best Kieschnick ever to play professional baseball.

by Takimoto on Nov 28, 2008 2:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Will you guys play at least a few disco songs for me tomorrow

I like it when marching bands play disco.

Roses are Orange.

by CV3000 on Nov 28, 2008 7:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry to be such a stickler, and I don’t think you’re exactly wrong, but “probably” isn’t enough. But I’ll still give you props.

It's spelled "S-h-u-h-u-s-k-y-h-a-t-e-r"

by JShufelt on Nov 28, 2008 11:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There would be no excuses for you guys if your rushing dropped off

Running back is perhaps the easiest position to “plug n’ play”, in any system really. Nothing taken away from Quizz, but that’s a fact of college football and depth. It was inconvenient that JJ tore his ACL last year, but our rushing and production from backs like Crenshaw and Alston stayed pretty linear, while Stew started seeing more carries than ever before.

If you’ll see, I italicized “could’ve” in that opening paragraph, as we’ve seen what Chip Kelly does with gifted athletes. Nate Costa, as I’m sure you didn’t know, played in a spread offense throughout high school, and has had now 4 years in the Oregon system, one Redshirt, one medical redshirt, minimal snaps in 2006, and this year, which is now a lost year (I believe, as I think you can only use a medical redshirt once. Correct me if I’m wrong.)

And you seem to be under the impression that Oregon QBs get hit a lot more than they really do. Dennis Dixon’s initial injury in the ASU game was with him diving out of bounds and landing awkwardly on the left knee. He made a fateful cut in the Arizona game and the season ended. Roper tore his MCL in the Purdue game after getting a hat to the knee (MCL tears are nearly always caused by hits to the knee, as opposed to ACL tears which are always with jukes and cuts.) Brady Leaf had two rolled ankles, we never had him run anyway. Cody Kempt got a concussion, a new recurring theme on Oregon QBs this year. Masoli got a concussion in the Boise State game on a very late hit, which would later send the player off after he did it once more on Ed Dickson. Then there was Chris Harper, a RB taking direct snaps for 2 quarters. Then the emergence of Darron Thomas after reluctantly burning his redshirt.

All of these injuries, save for Roper’s MCL and Dixon’s initial tear, occurred in the pocket. Dixon’s was on a scramble, while Roper’s was on an organized run.

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 27, 2008 11:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They get hit 6 times more often.

It all adds up.

Find me a running quarterback in the last decade who hasn’t missed a game due to injury. I can find you plenty of pocket passers who have done that.

It’s a stupid strategy to put your passing offense at risk when you could just hand it off to a running back.

No genius points. Sorry. This discussion is over.

Roses are Orange.

by CV3000 on Nov 28, 2008 1:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And much apologies for my language.

Pardon my usage of that certain word, but I’d rather you’d have edited it out somewhere and preserved our conversation. I believe we had something going there that I’d rather not have been censored.

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 27, 2008 5:40 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We can edit fanposts or fanshots, but we can’t edit any individual comments once they’re down, not even our own.

Sometimes I delete mine though. Why not, since I can!

Roses are Orange.

by CV3000 on Nov 27, 2008 9:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Really?

That’s interesting.

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 27, 2008 11:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Will OSU pass more?

I wonder if the Beavs will try to establish a passing game early to open up the short game. (which usually is the other way around)

I’d love to see OSU get some deep passes to Stroughter to set the tone. I also love those screen passes.

by mannyfresh1 on Nov 27, 2008 3:50 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You would think so

Just like you said— opening up the passing game will help out McCants and Francis.

--JB--

by Jake Bertalotto on Nov 27, 2008 4:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just curious, what is Francis' forte?

Is he a speed back of sorts? I’m just wondering if his style may complement McCants’, which could pose problems for Nick Alliotti’s incompetent coordination.

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 27, 2008 5:02 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He is more an Yvenson Bernard guy

aka a bigger version of Quizz. He’s quick and can find holes. He also has great hands.

That was one of the knocks on McCants and probably the most overlooked as to why Quizz is playing. No doubt Quizz has grown, but at the beginning of the year, McCants was every bit as good of a runner. Quizz could just catch the ball, which a RB with good hands is CRUCIAL to Mike Riley’s offense

Oregon State: where play action defense and healthy QBs thrive

by The VD Special on Nov 27, 2008 6:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think that's why Jeremiah Johnson has been a 4-year starter.

He’s got great hands, and amazing ability to improvise when catching the ball out of the backfield. He’s made two very memorable catch-and-runs in his career (See: Cal 2007, the last drive, setting up Cam Colvin’s infamous fumble; Oklahoma 2005 Holiday Bowl, 4th and long, caught a little flair screen out of the backfield, proceeded to take it some 25 yards downfield for a first down, en route to Brady Leaf’s interception at the Oklahoma 10.)

JJ is every bit as good a runner as Stewie was, but similar to Quizz, he was a gooood receiving back, which was big for us.

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 27, 2008 7:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That darn song

Am I going to have hear it every time I load BtD until Sunday?! I never dreamed I would have a song about Patrick Chung stuck in my head.

by Orange and Black Legacy on Nov 28, 2008 8:51 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank you

I was going to say something but my head had exploded prior.

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 28, 2008 10:56 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The music to it kind of reminds me of old n64 games.

Like, did you ever play Cruisin USA?

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 28, 2008 12:11 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

Now that you bring that up, it sounds exactly like that.

by ConnorOSU on Nov 28, 2008 1:39 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey CV, I was wondering last night

You have many times claimed that OSU has generally more and greater talent than UO. On top of that, you constantly pride yourself in your coaches doing more with less. So which is it? Especially considering these programs are basically even by most accounts.

If you have a supposedly much lighter apple than me, but you throw it almost exactly as far as me, who is doing less with more?

This logic seems flawed to me, I’d like for you to explain it without using the words: meth, lane county, or flysweep. Aaaaand time starts now!

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 28, 2008 11:42 AM PST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I don't say that they do more with less. I never have. That's inaccurate.

Only a delusional (and inconceivably arrogant) ducks fan would say that.

I know that ducks fans really like to thump their chests about their middle of the conference recruiting rankings, but it’s obvious that they don’t really mean anything when Mike Hass gets 0 stars, James Rodgers—one of the fastest players in conference history—gets 1 star, and Sammie Stroughter? 2 stars. Meanwhile, guys who can’t even catch get more than that. Hilarious. What coach would trade any of OSU’s receivers for any of oregon’s? We could analyze the defensive backfield for more laughs, but I don’t want to hurt your feelings.

The Pac-10 coaches validate the fact that OSU has more talented players when they vote more OSU players onto the all-conference team every year. Also, when the depth charts are tested as the seasons wear on, OSU pulls out the wins…the ducks? Not so much. 80% of the time this decade they have faded at the end of the year.

Not to mention that OSU has statistical leaders that rank in the conference’s all-time Top 10 in pretty much every category. Smith, Simonton, Anderson, Jackson, Bernard, Hass, Newson are all legends. The ducks have maybe Harrington in the top 10 in passing yards? But that’s it.

Roses are Orange.

by CV3000 on Nov 28, 2008 1:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You don't want to hurt my feelings

So you resort to “delusional and inconceivably arrogant ducks fan”?

Alright time's up lez do this...

by qrsouther on Nov 29, 2008 1:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

today

none of your comments matter at all TODAY! The TALENTED beavers got humiliated yesterday and so did you my little thumbsucker

by gman1 on Nov 30, 2008 11:38 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks, that makes the experience a whole lot better.

by Orange and Black Legacy on Nov 28, 2008 12:09 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

roses are orange

How sorry for our small little boy"cv" You must be curled up in a ball sucking your thumb today. You got schooled to say the least. Call mommy and so she can rebuild that small mans complex that she gave you at birth. I really like your coach,what a class act, but fans like you?

by gman1 on Nov 30, 2008 11:20 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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